An idea for orb distribution

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An idea for orb distribution

Postby Shmoo » Wed May 05, 2010 10:14 pm

I have been thinking a lot about orb distribution recently. I haven't posted in a while but anyone who is familiar with my past posts will realize I am very very comfortable with an "unfair" game and with luck evening out in the long run. On the other hand the longer one stays associated with this game the more one realizes it is probably not an issue that is going to go away with education. So that leads me to take seriously ideas about orb distribution (for example) which I am otherwise not really interested in changing.

Anyway - here is an idea I have been toying with - and would be interested in feedback on it. What if orbs were less likely to spawn near orbs? I am thinking an algorithm like:

Each time an orb is generated if it spawns next to an existing orb respawn it, but only once.

This way there is a low probability of orbs being generated in clusters when the board has a low number of orbs on it, but there is a chance.

You could change these percentages by respawning more times if you wanted.

I have found it interesting to think about this because in addition to naturally spreading orbs out it makes that stage where one is ignoring ones own orbs to squelch the opponent a little more dangerous because the more orbs one has the more chance that they will get an orb (already the case but much more so with this new algorithm).

Also it makes me much more interested in picking up orbs I know are bad simply because each orb is using more than one space of orb real estate.

Anyway - I am not advocating this system, I am actually a big fan of the current system - but I do think it is interesting to think about. And I confess I think about it a bit more when I look at one of the maps where orbs are densely packed on the enemies territory and mine is barren :-)
A game should have enough luck that the worse player can win SOME of the time!
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Postby OncoByte » Thu May 06, 2010 4:41 pm

I've thought about this a lot and I am pretty in the same camp as you - I don't mind the way it is now, but there may be some interesting tweaks one could think about.

In a prior post, I gave the results of simulations I ran using various techniques to alter orb probabilities:
http://quadradius.com/quadboard/viewtopic.php?t=1532

The change you describe - respawn once if an orb lands on an adjacent orb - may work. I didn't simulate that tweak, but will give it a go.

I thought it would be more elegant gameplaywise to reduce the chance of an orb spawning on a tile that already has an orb in its radial range instead of forcing a respawn. But of course, you could respawn the orb before the actual spawn results are shown to the players in your scenario.

Anyway, the short answer is that you have to drop the chance of an orb landing on a tile with adjacent orbs a great deal in order to affect orb distribution.
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Postby Shmoo » Thu May 06, 2010 6:05 pm

Interesting - thanks for the link onco,

I am much more interested in suggestions like these than the typical "your side" versus "my side" orb spawning.
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Postby Mammalman » Fri May 07, 2010 3:11 pm

a similar approach would be to weight the probability of an orb landing in a given tile by the number of tiles away from the nearest orb that tile is. adjacent gets a weight of 1, two spaces away is a weight of 2 etc. or you could do distance squared, if as onco showed a greater difference in probability is necessary.

agreed, though, that this isn't really a problem that needs fixing.
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Postby OncoByte » Mon May 10, 2010 9:43 pm

Ok - I simulated (and calculated) orb distribution probabilities for an early game scenario.

Conditions -

- 8x10 arena, both players with 20 pieces each controlling 15 empty tiles on their half of the board. 10 neutral tiles exist in contested territory between squads.

- 10 orbs spawn (to simulate the effects of 2-3 orb spawns)

Scenarios -

#1 - Orbs spawn randomly (probabilities calculated - see graph on the right)

#2 - If an orb spawns on a tile adjacent to an orb, it is rehashed once (simulated - see top graph)

#3 - Orbs are not permitted to spawn on tiles adjacent to an orb (simulated - see bottom graph)

Graphs - (Correction: Forbing defined as R ≤ 2B orbs)
Image

Discussion -

Getting forbed is defined by your opponent getting twice as many (or more) orbs as you in their territory. They can get 8 and you get 1, or they get 2 and you get one (with the rest landing in neutral territory). Under the random orb drop rules, this happens 18.7% of the time in this slightly contrived scenario. In each of the graphs, the chance that the red squad gets X orbs to land in its territory is shown in the graph. The portion of the bars that are pink represents instances when the red squad got forbed - i.e. the blue squad got twice as many or more orbs in its territory. The sum of the pink bars is 18.7% in the graph on the right.

When you add Shmoo's rehash an orb if it lands next to an existing orb rule, almost nothing changes (scenario #2, top graph). The chance of getting forbed goes down to about 17%. You can see that it is slightly harder to get 5 or more orbs to land on the red side. It also a bit more likely that you'll get 3 or 4 orbs out of the hash. But you chance of getting forbed doesn't move much. Your chance of getting really screwed (4 to 1 orb ratio) goes down too, but it wasn't all that high to begin with at 3.9%!

If you get strict and say no orb can spawn on a tile adjacent to an orb, you still get little change! This is more dependent on the configuration of the squad. If arrayed in a checkerboard pattern, all empty tiles are on diagonals and therefore, wont inhibit each other. If all the tori are in rows, the the chance of mutual inhibition is higher. Using the squad arrangement in the figure, you see that the orb distributions change more. It now becomes harder to get a large number of orbs on your side. The odds of forbage don't change as much as you might think - only down to ~13.4%. You chance of getting really forbed (4-1) are down to 1.5%. As I mentioned, the configurations matter. The blue squad has a slight advantage by having two fewer tiles with two neighbors. This translates into a 3% better chance of getting more orbs that the red squad.

Conclusion -
Rules restricting random orb distribution have little effect unless the severely limit the chance of an orb spawning on a given tile. Even then, the chance of forbage is not affected much.

In my opinion, the benefits of improving "fairness" by implementing such a strategy do not outweigh the added complexity involved.

Furthermore, most orb spawns are small and orbs are collected quickly - meaning that neighboring orb inhibition does little to stem uneven orb distribution over several spawns.

An alternative might be to "turn off" a tile for two or three orb spawns after it has received an orb. Another alternative might be to rehash any uncollected orbs on the third spawn after they were created. These ideas would need to be explored further to assess their impact.

I'm happy to vary the simulation (i.e. different board or squad configurations, smaller number of orbs per spawn, different rules governing orb spawns). Just let me know what you want to see - assuming your dorkometer has not already exploded.
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Postby The Learned Pig » Wed May 12, 2010 10:58 am

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